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#1. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from marty
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:02:58 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Good points. I thought after I sent my note I should have mentioned in my case the car is mostly a track car so better power in the higher RPM range was what I was after. I almost got cams at the same time but just couldn't swing it at the time. I was REALLY tempted to throw some cams, etc in when the head was off but that being an expensive, unplanned outage I really couldn't swing it. I also have to think about which time trial class any modifications might put me in. It's also kind of interesting, and generally beneficial depending on the circumstances, to change fewer things at once so you know what impact a particular change makes. And YMM definitely Vary ! Speaking of impact of modifications I left the clutch fan off when I put the head back. I installed a lower temp thermostat and electric fan switch, plus replaced my 55K mile BMW water pump with the Stewart pump. Since I drained all the coolant to do the head job it was filled with distilled water, a bottle of Water Wetter and some BMW antifreeze. On the track this past weekend my water temp gauge consistently went to the 2/3 mark while on the track. It would immediately drop to the halfway mark on the cool down lap. It was hot - 93 degrees F or so but I don't recall it getting that hot before. Has anyone else seen possibly elevated water temps at speed with the clutch fan removed or is that a normal range for a high ambient temp and I've just not seen it before? I need some real gauges so I can tell what the actual temperature is - that's on the list of things to do. marty Benjamin Hirsch wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:46:52 -0700 > From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > Remember that, as for feel, when you loose low end torque, even if the top > end power was unchanged, you'd notice the sudden increase in power up top > because the difference between torque levels (low-> high rpm) would be more > significant. You do gain some top level torque, but for anyone doing this > mod, you have to ask yourself how important the top end power is. If you're > tracking your car, it may be very important. IF you're just driving around > town or on country roads spiritedly, I'm not sure I'd do this mod without > cams/supporting software. ...and of course, YMMV :) > -Ben > >
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#2. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Carlos Lopez
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:27:13 -0400 From: "Carlos Lopez" <clopez98m3@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? On 7/10/07, marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> wrote: > Speaking of impact of modifications I left the clutch fan off when I put > the head back. I installed a lower temp thermostat and electric fan > switch, plus replaced my 55K mile BMW water pump with the Stewart pump. > Since I drained all the coolant to do the head job it was filled with > distilled water, a bottle of Water Wetter and some BMW antifreeze. > On the track this past weekend my water temp gauge consistently went to > the 2/3 mark while on the track. It would immediately drop to the > halfway mark on the cool down lap. It was hot - 93 degrees F or so but > I don't recall it getting that hot before. > Has anyone else seen possibly elevated water temps at speed with the > clutch fan removed or is that a normal range for a high ambient temp and > I've just not seen it before? I need some real gauges so I can tell > what the actual temperature is - that's on the list of things to do. The stock gauge is not a real temp gauge. If that bad boy moves you have cooling system issues. I drove home in 96 deg temps, cruisin' at 90mph with the a/c on and I have no clutch driven fan and my water pump is underdriven. Stock gauge was dead center, the Spa gauge for water said I was running between 195-205 degrees or so. My oil temp was a little hotter, 201-213 depending on engine load and how close I was following someone. :-) Bleed your system again just in case but in my opinion there's something going on there that's not normal. Carlos 98 M3
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#3. RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Matt Bader
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:46:31 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Ben: What cams did you use? One thing recommended to me were the Shrick 262/256 combo, but that is with forced induction. http://www.bmpdesign.com/catalog/modern/BMP_Engine_Perf.pdf Matt Bader 98 M3/4 -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Hirsch [mailto:benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:08 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:59:17 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? There is definitely a loss of torque on the low end (below 4000 rpms). This loss of torque is why I waited to do this modification until I was ready to do cams (+Software/supporting mods). -Ben ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#4. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Benjamin Hirsch
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:56:31 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? I have the sunbelt cams/kit (including conforti 3.5" intake, bimmerworld silicone Elbow/reducer, M50 intake Manifold, 24lbs Injectors, Stock Headers, AA track pipe, UUC catback) http://farm1.static.flickr.com/251/523843920_415c813a14_o.jpg so, say, 257rwhp / 230 trq Bimmerworld (and others) resell these... On 7/10/07, Matt Bader <mbader@exammaster.com> wrote: > > Ben: > > What cams did you use? > > One thing recommended to me were the Shrick 262/256 combo, but that is > with > forced induction. > > http://www.bmpdesign.com/catalog/modern/BMP_Engine_Perf.pdf > > Matt Bader > 98 M3/4 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Hirsch [mailto:benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:08 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:59:17 -0700 > From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > There is definitely a loss of torque on the low end (below 4000 > rpms). This > loss of torque is why I waited to do this modification until I was ready > to > do cams (+Software/supporting mods). > -Ben > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > > -- Thanks, Ben
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#5. RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Seth Thomas
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:59:55 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Ben and everyone else, This is the best and cheapest modifications you can do to an OBD2 S52 M3. It is a modification that anyone who owns an OBD2 M3 should do if they truly love driving their car no matter if it is a street only, track/street or track only. I am going to have to disagree with all those saying you will see a loss of low end torque with the M50 Intake Manifold modifications. The intake manifold shifts the peak torque of the motor about 500 RPMs higher. The curve stays the same and actually makes more ft lbs than before, or at least it did on my 98 M3. With the manifold (Dinan stage 2 software, ECIS CAI, stock exhaust manifold, RE pullies, and stock 65K mile cats) my car dynoed at 240 RWHP and 225 ft lbs of torque. Driving the car on the street you can't tell there is any torque missing. It does not change the way the car drives while you are cruising around the neighborhood. It doesn't change how the car pulls away from a redlight. The car feels just like it did before you installed the manifold in the lower RPMs. When you will fully notice it is above 4k RPMs where you get a nice kick in the pants from the increased torque and as the motor pulls harder to redline without hesitating. Once again I highly recommend this modification as it makes the car more of how it should have been from BMW. Seth Thomas -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Hirsch [mailto:benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:48 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:46:52 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Remember that, as for feel, when you loose low end torque, even if the top end power was unchanged, you'd notice the sudden increase in power up top because the difference between torque levels (low-> high rpm) would be more significant. You do gain some top level torque, but for anyone doing this mod, you have to ask yourself how important the top end power is. If you're tracking your car, it may be very important. IF you're just driving around town or on country roads spiritedly, I'm not sure I'd do this mod without cams/supporting software. ...and of course, YMMV :) -Ben
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#6. possible cooling system issue - from marty
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:07:49 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: possible cooling system issue thanks Carlos, I was afraid of that. I'd noticed a little dried coolant around the bottom of the reservoir cap so got a new cap last week - forgot to mention that. I still saw some this weekend. The reservoir is fairly new. I also drilled a teeny hole (1/16" i think) in the top of my new thermostat to help it bleed air out. When I was bleeding it did take a long time for the heater to blow hot but it eventually did and the coolant level hasn't dropped in the reservoir since then and no bubbles from bleeder screw. It didn't take as much liquid as I thought it should - but I recall that was the case last time i emptied and filled it and attributed it to some old coolant still in there somewhere. I just drain it at radiator petcock and block drain and refill. To add insult to injury my 'coolant level low' warning lit up on me this weekend. Several times, after allowing it to cool, I took the cap off and checked the level. No problem there - guessing it's time for another sensor? I also checked and snugged up all the hose ends I could reach, just in case, although I saw no leaks. I'll check everything and bleed it again as I may have some air in there still. I suppose I could do a pressure check on the system. Anything else I should check? The 'missing' clutch fan shouldn't make any difference at speed since lots of air is blowing across the radiator. marty Carlos Lopez wrote: > > The stock gauge is not a real temp gauge. If that bad boy moves you > have cooling system issues. I drove home in 96 deg temps, cruisin' at > 90mph with the a/c on and I have no clutch driven fan and my water > pump is underdriven. Stock gauge was dead center, the Spa gauge for > water said I was running between 195-205 degrees or so. My oil temp > was a little hotter, 201-213 depending on engine load and how close I > was following someone. :-) > > Bleed your system again just in case but in my opinion there's > something going on there that's not normal. > > Carlos > 98 M3
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#7. RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Matt Bader
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:23:38 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Thanks, Seth. Good points. With forced induction, the results should be even better. Getting all of the systems to work together and complement one another is the ticket to success, as the more experienced folks on this list know better than me. Matt Bader 98 M3/4 -----Original Message----- From: Seth Thomas [mailto:porsche993@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 5:08 PM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:59:55 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Ben and everyone else, This is the best and cheapest modifications you can do to an OBD2 S52 M3. It is a modification that anyone who owns an OBD2 M3 should do if they truly love driving their car no matter if it is a street only, track/street or track only. I am going to have to disagree with all those saying you will see a loss of low end torque with the M50 Intake Manifold modifications. The intake manifold shifts the peak torque of the motor about 500 RPMs higher. The curve stays the same and actually makes more ft lbs than before, or at least it did on my 98 M3. With the manifold (Dinan stage 2 software, ECIS CAI, stock exhaust manifold, RE pullies, and stock 65K mile cats) my car dynoed at 240 RWHP and 225 ft lbs of torque. Driving the car on the street you can't tell there is any torque missing. It does not change the way the car drives while you are cruising around the neighborhood. It doesn't change how the car pulls away from a redlight. The car feels just like it did before you installed the manifold in the lower RPMs. When you will fully notice it is above 4k RPMs where you get a nice kick in the pants from the increased torque and as the motor pulls harder to redline without hesitating. Once again I highly recommend this modification as it makes the car more of how it should have been from BMW. Seth Thomas -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Hirsch [mailto:benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:48 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:46:52 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Remember that, as for feel, when you loose low end torque, even if the top end power was unchanged, you'd notice the sudden increase in power up top because the difference between torque levels (low-> high rpm) would be more significant. You do gain some top level torque, but for anyone doing this mod, you have to ask yourself how important the top end power is. If you're tracking your car, it may be very important. IF you're just driving around town or on country roads spiritedly, I'm not sure I'd do this mod without cams/supporting software. ...and of course, YMMV :) -Ben ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#8. Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue - from Peter Loron
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:25:12 -0700 From: "Peter Loron" <peterloron@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue Was the cooling system still pressurized after letting it completely cool off? -Pete On 7/10/07, marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:07:49 -0400 > From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> > Subject: possible cooling system issue > > thanks Carlos, > > I was afraid of that. I'd noticed a little dried coolant around the > bottom of the reservoir cap so got a new cap last week - forgot to > mention that. I still saw some this weekend. The reservoir is fairly > new. I also drilled a teeny hole (1/16" i think) in the top of my new > thermostat to help it bleed air out. > When I was bleeding it did take a long time for the heater to blow hot > but it eventually did and the coolant level hasn't dropped in the > reservoir since then and no bubbles from bleeder screw. It didn't take > as much liquid as I thought it should - but I recall that was the case > last time i emptied and filled it and attributed it to some old coolant > still in there somewhere. I just drain it at radiator petcock and block > drain and refill. > To add insult to injury my 'coolant level low' warning lit up on me this > weekend. Several times, after allowing it to cool, I took the cap off > and checked the level. No problem there - guessing it's time for > another sensor? I also checked and snugged up all the hose ends I could > reach, just in case, although I saw no leaks. > > I'll check everything and bleed it again as I may have some air in there > still. I suppose I could do a pressure check on the system. Anything > else I should check? > The 'missing' clutch fan shouldn't make any difference at speed since > lots of air is blowing across the radiator. > > marty > > Carlos Lopez wrote: > > > > The stock gauge is not a real temp gauge. If that bad boy moves you > > have cooling system issues. I drove home in 96 deg temps, cruisin' at > > 90mph with the a/c on and I have no clutch driven fan and my water > > pump is underdriven. Stock gauge was dead center, the Spa gauge for > > water said I was running between 195-205 degrees or so. My oil temp > > was a little hotter, 201-213 depending on engine load and how close I > > was following someone. :-) > > > > Bleed your system again just in case but in my opinion there's > > something going on there that's not normal. > > > > Carlos > > 98 M3 > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#9. Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue - from marty
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:18:21 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue It was still warm when i opened it and it was pressurized. I opened it just now and it's not pressurized - it's completely cool but it's been sitting for two days. The coolant level has dropped a bit from when i filled it 10 days ago - on the Cold line to now right below the letters. I wonder if there's a teeny leak by the cap preventing it from pressurizing correctly? Maybe I should put the original reservoir back on. I'd replaced it as a preventive measure and because I couldn't see through it but can't see through this new one much better. marty Peter Loron wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:25:12 -0700 > From: "Peter Loron" <peterloron@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue > > Was the cooling system still pressurized after letting it completely cool > off? > > -Pete > >
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#10. Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue - from Mark D
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:19:19 -0400 From: Mark D <mdlkml@atari-source.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] possible cooling system issue Marty, Can you describe the steps you took to bleed it? Did you do the 4000 RPM burn for 1 minute? You definitely don't want to be running the car at all with that temp gauge above half. Even during the bleeding process of my head job, it didn't go above half. Thanks, Mark On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:08 -0500, marty wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:07:49 -0400 > From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> > Subject: possible cooling system issue > > thanks Carlos, > > I was afraid of that. I'd noticed a little dried coolant around the > bottom of the reservoir cap so got a new cap last week - forgot to > mention that. I still saw some this weekend. The reservoir is fairly > new. I also drilled a teeny hole (1/16" i think) in the top of my new > thermostat to help it bleed air out. > When I was bleeding it did take a long time for the heater to blow hot > but it eventually did and the coolant level hasn't dropped in the > reservoir since then and no bubbles from bleeder screw. It didn't take > as much liquid as I thought it should - but I recall that was the case > last time i emptied and filled it and attributed it to some old coolant > still in there somewhere. I just drain it at radiator petcock and block > drain and refill. > To add insult to injury my 'coolant level low' warning lit up on me this > weekend. Several times, after allowing it to cool, I took the cap off > and checked the level. No problem there - guessing it's time for > another sensor? I also checked and snugged up all the hose ends I could > reach, just in case, although I saw no leaks. > > I'll check everything and bleed it again as I may have some air in there > still. I suppose I could do a pressure check on the system. Anything > else I should check? > The 'missing' clutch fan shouldn't make any difference at speed since > lots of air is blowing across the radiator. > > marty > > Carlos Lopez wrote: > > > > The stock gauge is not a real temp gauge. If that bad boy moves you > > have cooling system issues. I drove home in 96 deg temps, cruisin' at > > 90mph with the a/c on and I have no clutch driven fan and my water > > pump is underdriven. Stock gauge was dead center, the Spa gauge for > > water said I was running between 195-205 degrees or so. My oil temp > > was a little hotter, 201-213 depending on engine load and how close I > > was following someone. :-) > > > > Bleed your system again just in case but in my opinion there's > > something going on there that's not normal. > > > > Carlos > > 98 M3 > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >