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#1. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from Carlos Lopez
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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:05:51 -0400 From: "Carlos Lopez" <clopez98m3@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! On 9/4/07, mdriver13@aol.com <mdriver13@aol.com> wrote: >So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a >bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. Either way, chasing suspension problems on old possibly used up tires is a bad idea. It could be all three, bushings, worn shocks, bad tires. You have to start somewhere. Carlos 98 M3
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#2. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - from Mark D
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:11:44 -0400 From: Mark D <mdlkml@atari-source.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question Stiles, No he's saying that when yanking on the lug wrench, the one wheel raises up much higher than the other. My first thought on this is the spring. The ball joints may cause this but RTAB would cause excessive front to rear movement. If you're a heavy driver and tend to only drive by yourself, the left side simply could have worn more over the years due to the weight. And judging by the way some cars I see out there lean I think that's more probable than impossible. Thanks, Mark Stiles wrote: > Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:41:30 -0700 > From: "Stiles" <stiles_s@hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question > > Are you sure this is a new behavior? > > Could it just be the artifact of the rear swaybar "tying" the left and right > wheels? It makes sense that lifting one wheel is going to lift the wheel on > the other side via the swaybar... > > Scott. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:Mdriver13@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 2:08 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] suspension wear question > > Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:58:38 EDT > From: Mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: suspension wear question > > Group, > > Lately I've noticed that when I'm loosening my lug bolts (and moving the bar > > straight up as toward the ceiling), my left side rear wheel will move up > significantly too. Rear end jacked up. The right side will move ever so > slightly. > Both sides are always torqued the same. Is this a sign that my left side > RTAB has seen better days, or that my left side Koni DA is bad? > > Any suggestions? The car just turned 51K, but has 10 years of autox'ing on > it. > > TIA, > > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 > coupe > Philly Region SCCA > 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion > Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering > > >
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#3. RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from Mike Frank
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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:13:44 -0400 From: "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Bob, Just to be clear, is "left" driver's side or passenger's side? Either way, if you have aftermarket sway bars and/or exhaust, I'd check for interference between the two with the car jacked up. The interference can cause the driver's side remain slightly compressed (wheel won't move as easily). Just a thought. Mike Frank 97 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:mdriver13@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:38 AM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0400 > From: mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! > > Hi Scott, > > I think I tried?to be too?brief in my original email question, so?I'll try > this again.? > > The real problem is during autox'ing this year, I can't seem to put down > any power coming out of tight turns or even long sweepers...the rear end > is just all over the place.? This was not a problem last year, the car > felt like it was on rails -- quite intoxicating!? My Hoosiers were new > last year, so this is their second season.? !0 events last year, now five > more.? At the same time I have noticed that when changing tires, with the > rear on jack stands, the left rear suspension "gives" more easily than the > right side.? I mean, if I grab the wheel hub and pull up I can get about > three inches of travel with little effort, not so easy on the right side - > maybe an inch?and I need?more effort too!? Shouldn't the effort be the > same from side to side?? What has me thinking?it's the?suspension is that > tire grip on the front seems fine, though I run -3.5 degrees camber and > that certainly helps the tires do their thing. > > > So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a > bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. > > As always, TIA > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 coupe > Philly Region SCCA > 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion > Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering
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#4. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from David Ngo
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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ngo <rudngo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Bob, Which Hoosiers are you running? 15 events and winter storage have likely taken their toll on them and you will be surprised how much more grip you'll get with a new set. Do you rotate them? Suspension wise, worn RTABs will make the car seem a little loose. Also, it would be a good idea to check for broken swaybar tabs and/or a blown shock. One other possibility is that your LSD has given up the ghost. At 75k miles and a ton of autoxes on my car, I could hold one wheel and turn the other by hand - the clutches were completely worn. Dave ----- Original Message ---- From: "mdriver13@aol.com" <mdriver13@aol.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 9:37:43 AM Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0400 From: mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Scott, I think I tried?to be too?brief in my original email question, so?I'll try this again.? The real problem is during autox'ing this year, I can't seem to put down any power coming out of tight turns or even long sweepers...the rear end is just all over the place.? This was not a problem last year, the car felt like it was on rails -- quite intoxicating!? My Hoosiers were new last year, so this is their second season.? !0 events last year, now five more.? At the same time I have noticed that when changing tires, with the rear on jack stands, the left rear suspension "gives" more easily than the right side.? I mean, if I grab the wheel hub and pull up I can get about three inches of travel with little effort, not so easy on the right side - maybe an inch?and I need?more effort too!? Shouldn't the effort be the same from side to side?? What has me thinking?it's the?suspension is that tire grip on the front seems fine, though I run -3.5 degrees camber and that certainly helps the tires do their thing. So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. As always, TIA Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering
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#5. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:23:54 -0400 From: mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi David, My Hoosiers are the wet radials, rotated every autox, with barely any tread left ;-)) LSD seems okay.? I'll drop the shocks and see what kind of resistance I get from each. thanks for the suggestions... PS: Were you at Sunday's Philly autox, or was that another David Ngo? Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering -----Original Message----- From: David Ngo <rudngo@yahoo.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:27 am Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ngo <rudngo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Bob, Which Hoosiers are you running? 15 events and winter storage have likely taken their toll on them and you will be surprised how much more grip you'll get with a new set. Do you rotate them? Suspension wise, worn RTABs will make the car seem a little loose. Also, it would be a good idea to check for broken swaybar tabs and/or a blown shock. One other possibility is that your LSD has given up the ghost. At 75k miles and a ton of autoxes on my car, I could hold one wheel and turn the other by hand - the clutches were completely worn. Dave ----- Original Message ---- From: "mdriver13@aol.com" <mdriver13@aol.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 9:37:43 AM Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0400 From: mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Scott, I think I tried?to be too?brief in my original email question, so?I'll try this again.? The real problem is during autox'ing this year, I can't seem to put down any power coming out of tight turns or even long sweepers...the rear end is just all over the place.? This was not a problem last year, the car felt like it was on rails -- quite intoxicating!? My Hoosiers were new last year, so this is their second season.? !0 events last year, now five more.? At the same time I have noticed that when changing tires, with the rear on jack stands, the left rear suspension "gives" more easily than the right side.? I mean, if I grab the wheel hub and pull up I can get about three inches of travel with little effort, not so easy on the right side - maybe an inch?and I need?more effort too!? Shouldn't the effort be the same from side to side?? What has me thinking?it's the?suspension is that tire grip on the front seems fine, though I run -3.5 degrees camber and that certainly helps the tires do their thing. So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. As always, TIA Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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#6. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:27:37 -0400 From: mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Mike, Yes, left is driver side. Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frank <mfrank28@insightbb.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:17 am Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:13:44 -0400 From: "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Bob, Just to be clear, is "left" driver's side or passenger's side? Either way, if you have aftermarket sway bars and/or exhaust, I'd check for interference between the two with the car jacked up. The interference can cause the driver's side remain slightly compressed (wheel won't move as easily). Just a thought. Mike Frank 97 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:mdriver13@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:38 AM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0400 > From: mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! > > Hi Scott, > > I think I tried?to be too?brief in my original email question, so?I'll try > this again.? > > The real problem is during autox'ing this year, I can't seem to put down > any power coming out of tight turns or even long sweepers...the rear end > is just all over the place.? This was not a problem last year, the car > felt like it was on rails -- quite intoxicating!? My Hoosiers were new > last year, so this is their second season.? !0 events last year, now five > more.? At the same time I have noticed that when changing tires, with the > rear on jack stands, the left rear suspension "gives" more easily than the > right side.? I mean, if I grab the wheel hub and pull up I can get about > three inches of travel with little effort, not so easy on the right side - > maybe an inch?and I need?more effort too!? Shouldn't the effort be the > same from side to side?? What has me thinking?it's the?suspension is that > tire grip on the front seems fine, though I run -3.5 degrees camber and > that certainly helps the tires do their thing. > > > So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a > bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. > > As always, TIA > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 coupe > Philly Region SCCA > 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion > Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering ************************************************* ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
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#7. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from Graeme Weston-Lewis
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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:37:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Graeme Weston-Lewis <graemewl@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Let's start with some basics. 1. Did you change anything between last year and this? 2. When was the last time you had the car aligned? M3's are rather sensitive to rear toe. 3. Are you running coilovers? If so, is the ride height still where you want it? Our cars are sensitive to rake. More than ~3/4" and things get a little squirly - ask me how I know! 4. How old are the shocks? I would be surprised if it's your tires. Yes they'll be a little slower than last year, but the balance should be similar. Good Luck, Graeme http://www.generic-racing.com mdriver13@aol.com wrote: Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0400 From: mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! Hi Scott, I think I tried?to be too?brief in my original email question, so?I'll try this again.? The real problem is during autox'ing this year, I can't seem to put down any power coming out of tight turns or even long sweepers...the rear end is just all over the place.? This was not a problem last year, the car felt like it was on rails -- quite intoxicating!? My Hoosiers were new last year, so this is their second season.? !0 events last year, now five more.? At the same time I have noticed that when changing tires, with the rear on jack stands, the left rear suspension "gives" more easily than the right side.? I mean, if I grab the wheel hub and pull up I can get about three inches of travel with little effort, not so easy on the right side - maybe an inch?and I need?more effort too!? Shouldn't the effort be the same from side to side?? What has me thinking?it's the?suspension is that tire grip on the front seems fine, though I run -3.5 degrees camber and that certainly helps the tires do their thing. So my issue is, did my Hoosiers go from champs to chumps, or do I have a bushing / shock problem?? Hope that makes things clearer. As always, TIA Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering -----Original Message----- From: Stiles To: E36M3 Sent: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 1:47 am Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:41:30 -0700 From: "Stiles" Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question Are you sure this is a new behavior? Could it just be the artifact of the rear swaybar "tying" the left and right wheels? It makes sense that lifting one wheel is going to lift the wheel on the other side via the swaybar... Scott. -----Original Message----- From: Mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:Mdriver13@aol.com] Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 2:08 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] suspension wear question Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:58:38 EDT From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: suspension wear question Group, Lately I've noticed that when I'm loosening my lug bolts (and moving the bar straight up as toward the ceiling), my left side rear wheel will move up significantly too. Rear end jacked up. The right side will move ever so slightly. Both sides are always torqued the same. Is this a sign that my left side RTAB has seen better days, or that my left side Koni DA is bad? Any suggestions? The car just turned 51K, but has 10 years of autox'ing on it. TIA, Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* I have no control over anything below this line. --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
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#8. RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question - from Jonathan L.
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:12:56 -0700 From: "Jonathan L." <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] suspension wear question Any chance someone was playing around with your shock settings on one side and never put them back to your proper settings? Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ It’s the Windows Live™ Hotmail® you love — on your phone! http://www.windowsmobile.com/hotmailmobile?ocid=MobileHMTagline_2
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#9. Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:23:43 EDT From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] suspension wear question - tail wagging dog! In a message dated 9/4/2007 11:38:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, graemewl@yahoo.com writes: Let's start with some basics. 1. Did you change anything between last year and this? 2. When was the last time you had the car aligned? M3's are rather sensitive to rear toe. 3. Are you running coilovers? If so, is the ride height still where you want it? Our cars are sensitive to rake. More than ~3/4" and things get a little squirly - ask me how I know! 4. How old are the shocks? Hi Graeme, Nice points for everyone to think through. 1) changed to TCK CO's Koni DA's from Koni SA's two events ago -- did not change rear end behavior 2) alignment has been awhile and not since I lowered the rear 0.5" (did this toward end of last year and still had great grip) 3) I did lower the front more than the rear just 2 events ago, now 1.0" front, 0.5" rear 4) they are Koni DA's with only 20K miles 5) all suspension bushings are the originals at 51K miles on the car Thanks for the help, Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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#10. Re: E46 Upper Strut Mounts - from kim.burgess@att.net
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Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:43:07 +0000 From: kim.burgess@att.net Subject: Re: E46 Upper Strut Mounts Jason - Tightening the strut nut can not cause bearing failure as it is clamping the shock shaft to the inner race only. Tightening the nut does not load/clamp the bearing to the outer race. KLB -------------------- 6 -------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Lombard <jrlombard@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: E46 Upper Strut Mounts Neil, Thanks for the reply and for the advice. I assure you that I am thinking about it carefully--thus my question to the list. Your assertions are exactly the ones that I have questions about. I'm certainly not going to buy them blindly. I would only buy them if someone on this list said, "Yes, I've done it, and it works fabulously."....or something to that effect. I can assure you that my current ones definitely need replacing. There is a ton of play at the bearing. I think the PO tightened the crap out of the nut with an air gun or something. There's no way that an accurate alignment could be set with the amount of play that is in the bearing. Thanks again for the feedback. Jason Lombard '96 Dakar II/Black