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#1. Re: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure - from Andrew Kalman
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:39:41 -0700 From: Andrew Kalman <aek@pumpkininc.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure Definitely sounds like you have a substantial continuous drain ... I'd measure the current at the battery + first, to get a feel for how much it is. If it's a few mA, then it'll be hard to find. If it's a few 100 mA, then you can probably reduce the possible suspects pretty quickly. Do you have a snazzy new clamp-style current meter? That might also help for tracing. The new ones are quite sensitive, and in a car you generally have easy access to single conductors. In my experience (not E36 M3 in particular), dome lights are (amazingly, to me) capable of draining batteries on short order. So are things like key-in-ignition buzzers, and of course starter motor solenoids. And stereo equipment. --Andrew >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:55:37 -0500 >From: Steve Klein <s.klein@steveklein.cc> >Subject: Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure > >Hello, Gang, and thank you for the responses and >help last week with my no-start fuel issue. > >I got a replacement pump from BMA last week and >finally had a chance to put it in last night and >the car fired right up! > >However, a secondary problem cropped up in the >midst of the fuel pump issue, and I'm not >certain if they're related or just coincidental. > >Recap: >Last wed, crank car, lots of crank no fire. >(tank was below 1/8th, and parked on slight >sideways incline towards passenger/pump side). >Add 3gal. and the car fires, but idles with much >stumbling. Revs okay. It's late, so I leave the >car overnight thinking to run it in the morning. > >Thur: >Go to start car (started last time), but again, >all crank, no fire. Battery is strong and cranks >hard, but same problem as before. Now I know >fuel level isn't a culprit. I can tell it's >taking it's toll on the battery, so I leave it >so I don't drain it too much, write Die Grüppe >for help. Conclude after 180k it's time to order >pump. > >Thur Eve: >Go to crank car again and test relay and voltage >at the pump, but car is dead. No dome lights, no >power. I'm under a heavy workload, so I leave >the car until I can get the new pump. > >Sun: >Pull battery and put on charger. > >Mon: >Re-install battery, make fused jumper and get >good voltage test at fuel pump connection. >Install fuel pump. Start car. Woohoo! Car starts >within 3sec. and runs like a champ. Great! >Button everything back up and leave it for the >night. > >Today: >Open car and see that dome light comes on, but >is very dim. No power and it barely turns over. >Not nearly enough to start. Return to Die Grüppe >for help. > >This happened after the fuel pump gave out and >I'd cranked the car one day, left it and cranked >it again the second. Could they possibly be >related to my cranking? > >I'm quite familiar with electronics, and I know >the various methodologies, but I've never >actually had to trace a current drain on a car >before. Can anyone offer procedures or links for >the process of testing drain at the battery? Do >you pull fuses one by one until the circuit is >located? > >Thanks for your reading time any help or advice you can offer. > >Steve. > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >************************************************* -- ______________________________________ Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D. aek@pumpkininc.com
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#2. RE: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure - from Goss, Patrick - PA
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:05:01 -0500 From: "Goss, Patrick - PA" <Patrick.Goss@GMACM.COM> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure Also check the door pin switches. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Kalman [mailto:aek@pumpkininc.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 3:44 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:39:41 -0700 From: Andrew Kalman <aek@pumpkininc.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure Definitely sounds like you have a substantial continuous drain ... I'd measure the current at the battery + first, to get a feel for how much it is. If it's a few mA, then it'll be hard to find. If it's a few 100 mA, then you can probably reduce the possible suspects pretty quickly. Do you have a snazzy new clamp-style current meter? That might also help for tracing. The new ones are quite sensitive, and in a car you generally have easy access to single conductors. In my experience (not E36 M3 in particular), dome lights are (amazingly, to me) capable of draining batteries on short order. So are things like key-in-ignition buzzers, and of course starter motor solenoids. And stereo equipment. --Andrew >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:55:37 -0500 >From: Steve Klein <s.klein@steveklein.cc> >Subject: Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure > >Hello, Gang, and thank you for the responses and >help last week with my no-start fuel issue. > >I got a replacement pump from BMA last week and >finally had a chance to put it in last night and >the car fired right up! > >However, a secondary problem cropped up in the >midst of the fuel pump issue, and I'm not >certain if they're related or just coincidental. > >Recap: >Last wed, crank car, lots of crank no fire. >(tank was below 1/8th, and parked on slight >sideways incline towards passenger/pump side). >Add 3gal. and the car fires, but idles with much >stumbling. Revs okay. It's late, so I leave the >car overnight thinking to run it in the morning. > >Thur: >Go to start car (started last time), but again, >all crank, no fire. Battery is strong and cranks >hard, but same problem as before. Now I know >fuel level isn't a culprit. I can tell it's >taking it's toll on the battery, so I leave it >so I don't drain it too much, write Die Grüppe >for help. Conclude after 180k it's time to order >pump. > >Thur Eve: >Go to crank car again and test relay and voltage >at the pump, but car is dead. No dome lights, no >power. I'm under a heavy workload, so I leave >the car until I can get the new pump. > >Sun: >Pull battery and put on charger. > >Mon: >Re-install battery, make fused jumper and get >good voltage test at fuel pump connection. >Install fuel pump. Start car. Woohoo! Car starts >within 3sec. and runs like a champ. Great! >Button everything back up and leave it for the >night. > >Today: >Open car and see that dome light comes on, but >is very dim. No power and it barely turns over. >Not nearly enough to start. Return to Die Grüppe >for help. > >This happened after the fuel pump gave out and >I'd cranked the car one day, left it and cranked >it again the second. Could they possibly be >related to my cranking? > >I'm quite familiar with electronics, and I know >the various methodologies, but I've never >actually had to trace a current drain on a car >before. Can anyone offer procedures or links for >the process of testing drain at the battery? Do >you pull fuses one by one until the circuit is >located? > >Thanks for your reading time any help or advice you can offer. > >Steve. > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >************************************************* -- ______________________________________ Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D. aek@pumpkininc.com ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#3. driveline loss - from RFKoby@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:54:41 EDT From: RFKoby@aol.com Subject: driveline loss the "parasitic" driveline loss is not a constant. It is the same percentage of the source. This is very difficult to describe, but consider this example: Imagine that you have to push your car up a slight incline. You have the ability to product 100 lbs of thrust. If you push in-line with the direction of travel, you 100 lbs of thrust is transfered and 100 lbs of thrust is delivered to the car. Now imagine that you can only apply your 100 lbs of thrust at a 30 degree angle from the direction of travel. You are still producing 100 lbs of thrust, but only 86 lbs of thrust is applied to the direction of travel. The other 14 lbs of thrust is used (futilely) to push the car sideways. This is what is happening in the driveline. Because the transmission and differential have helical cut gears, some of the torque is lost. The force is not directly transfered. Some of the force (torque) is lost and applied as a side load to the gear sets and their support bearings. Now if you really want to make some huge gains, find some replacement gear sets for the trans and diff that are staight cut. They will be very noisy, but the only parasitic losses will be from the seal drag. BobK - Bob's Garage Mahal In a message dated 10/23/2007 3:35:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, e36m3@bmw-m.net writes: Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:20:09 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: Calculating Parasitic Drivetrain Loss This may seem like a purely academic question, but I see numbers all over the place regarding drive train power loss from motor to wheels. See the post below. In general, I see references to calculating parasitic losses based on some factor X. These numbers are usually in the range of 15%-20% drivetrain loss. Let's say a stock E36 M3 is rated at 240 crank horsepower. These typically dyno at about 200-205 whp. So we are talking about a loss of 35-40 hp from engine to wheels, let's say 18-19% loss. I would think that would be a fairly fixed number, not dependent on the power of the engine per se. So, let's say you upgrade the motor to 300 e.g. a stage II cam kit or whatever), and want to calculate whp. If you use the 18% factor, you are left with roughly 246 whp, a loss of 54hp. These are numbers I have actually seen on dyno charts so the formula seems to hold. But, how is it that the parasitic loss from example A is roughly 35 hp and from example B it is 54 hp? To me, that somewhat defies logic. Seems to me that, all things being equal, the parasitic loss for both vehicles should be roughly the same. Thus the 300 hp car should dyno at roughly 265hp. Matt Bader ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure - from Rex Tener
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:31:58 -0700 From: Rex Tener <rex_tener@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Isolating battery drain? Was Fuel Pump Failure At 01:14 PM 10/23/2007, Goss, Patrick - PA wrote: >Also check the door pin switches. And the trunk light pin switch. I Left the trunk open by accident in the garage. A dead battery greeted me on my return. Rex
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#5. RE: [E36M3] driveline loss - from Matt Bader
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:32:58 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] driveline loss Thanks, I had not considered that the extra power applied would exert additional force in a non-linear fashion, such as the helical gears. Matt -----Original Message----- From: RFKoby@aol.com [mailto:RFKoby@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:04 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] driveline loss Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:54:41 EDT From: RFKoby@aol.com Subject: driveline loss the "parasitic" driveline loss is not a constant. It is the same percentage of the source. This is very difficult to describe, but consider this example: Imagine that you have to push your car up a slight incline. You have the ability to product 100 lbs of thrust. If you push in-line with the direction of travel, you 100 lbs of thrust is transfered and 100 lbs of thrust is delivered to the car. Now imagine that you can only apply your 100 lbs of thrust at a 30 degree angle from the direction of travel. You are still producing 100 lbs of thrust, but only 86 lbs of thrust is applied to the direction of travel. The other 14 lbs of thrust is used (futilely) to push the car sideways. This is what is happening in the driveline. Because the transmission and differential have helical cut gears, some of the torque is lost. The force is not directly transfered. Some of the force (torque) is lost and applied as a side load to the gear sets and their support bearings. Now if you really want to make some huge gains, find some replacement gear sets for the trans and diff that are staight cut. They will be very noisy, but the only parasitic losses will be from the seal drag. BobK - Bob's Garage Mahal In a message dated 10/23/2007 3:35:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, e36m3@bmw-m.net writes: Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:20:09 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: Calculating Parasitic Drivetrain Loss This may seem like a purely academic question, but I see numbers all over the place regarding drive train power loss from motor to wheels. See the post below. In general, I see references to calculating parasitic losses based on some factor X. These numbers are usually in the range of 15%-20% drivetrain loss. Let's say a stock E36 M3 is rated at 240 crank horsepower. These typically dyno at about 200-205 whp. So we are talking about a loss of 35-40 hp from engine to wheels, let's say 18-19% loss. I would think that would be a fairly fixed number, not dependent on the power of the engine per se. So, let's say you upgrade the motor to 300 e.g. a stage II cam kit or whatever), and want to calculate whp. If you use the 18% factor, you are left with roughly 246 whp, a loss of 54hp. These are numbers I have actually seen on dyno charts so the formula seems to hold. But, how is it that the parasitic loss from example A is roughly 35 hp and from example B it is 54 hp? To me, that somewhat defies logic. Seems to me that, all things being equal, the parasitic loss for both vehicles should be roughly the same. Thus the 300 hp car should dyno at roughly 265hp. Matt Bader ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#6. Re: Isolating Current Drain: Self Chastising - from Neil Maller
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:45:28 -0400 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Isolating Current Drain: Self Chastising on 10/23/07 3:34 PM, Steve Klein <s.klein@steveklein.cc> wrote: > The battery an Exide and at least 7yrs old, but takes and holds a > charge perfectly and tests fine, so I'm going to proceed with the > fuse by fuse by relay method. It may test fine, but how do you know it's holding a charge? Your experience suggests otherwise. At 7 years old, your battery is at least 1-2 years into borrowed time, more if you live where there are real winters. Yes, there could be an external current drain - for instance my car had a defective trunk light switch a few years back. But odds are that a new battery will solve your problem. Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Re: Isolating Current Drain: Self Chastising - from David Thomas
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:37:13 -0700 From: David Thomas <dave@sasdatalink.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Isolating Current Drain: Self Chastising On Tuesday 23 October 2007 2:54:16 pm Neil Maller wrote: > It may test fine, but how do you know it's holding a charge? Your > experience suggests otherwise. At 7 years old, your battery is at least 1-2 > years into borrowed time, more if you live where there are real winters. X2 Spend the $90 and be happy that you got 7 years out of your battery. If its not bad now, its only a matter of time, especially if its been deep discharged a few times. As for the parasitic current drain, you need to just put a multimeter in-line to the battery and get a reading. Make sure you have all doors shut and disable the trunk light. You should be able to tell in just a few minutes if your drain is too high. Should be under 75 milliamps...I actually tested mine a few months ago but I cant remember what it was...damn brain... Dave
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#8. 135i weight - from Steve Walsh
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 20:23:10 -0700 From: Steve Walsh <stevewalsh@earthlink.net> Subject: 135i weight >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:23:03 -0400 >From: "Paul Andrews" <emosound@verizon.net> >Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] OT: 135 coupe - latest news > >I bet BMW quotes the weight with an empty gas tank. Fill a 16-gallon tank, >that adds up to about 100 lbs.... BMW's current unladen weight includes a 1/2 tank of gas, all other fluids full, one 150lb driver and 20lbs of 'luggage'. I don't know what they were using when the E36 M3 was released, but I seem to remember full tank, full fluids, no driver. But the old memory aint what it used to be... So pretty close to the ole E36 M3. I'd say $5K in upgrades (bigger rad, bigger oil cooler, ecu programmer, exhaust downpipe etc), and you are over 400hp reliably.
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Re: Question RE UUC Shortshifter - from Chris Papademetrious
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:07:36 -0400 From: "Chris Papademetrious" <chrispitude@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Question RE UUC Shortshifter On 10/22/07, Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks <rob@shortshifter.com> wrote: > Your symptoms point to incomplete clutch disengagement... the fact that you > have to push it in while slowing down is an indicator. If the problem you > are having is in _all_ gears, then it's likely something in the clutch. Rob is right on the money, your clutch is not completely disengaging. I had this same problem, and eventually after several months (long story not worth telling) it fragged my synchros. When my local transmission guy dropped the transmission to have it rebuilt, we found that the clutch friction surface was worn conically! It seemed that the transmission was never correctly reinstalled by the previous mechanic (bummer, since I paid a BMW mechanic to do the job). Anyway, after the rebuilt transmission went back on straight, it's been shifting as expected ever since. - Chris
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#10. Current Drain Continues... - from Steve Klein
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:17:16 -0500 From: Steve Klein <s.klein@steveklein.cc> Subject: Current Drain Continues... The plot thickens. Where is the Starter Relay on an 11/95 M3? Bentley says "Behind the left footwell speaker grill" but I've got it all apart and I can't see anything. Is it behind the speaker? With a jumper battery pack connected to the positive jump lug in the engine bay and using a multimeter between Neg and body ground, I've tested current draw (everything off) by going through the engine compartment fuse block and pulling each fuse and relay one by one, but I'm getting over .5A draw (quickly jumps out of range on my MM). I found three relays below the driver kick panel (two in the aux relay panel and one further back on the splice panel). Still 1A draw. The one I haven't found is the Starter relay. Any help locating it or making sense of my findings is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Steve