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#1. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Jon Siccardi - Treehouse
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:34:39 -0600 From: "Jon Siccardi - Treehouse" <shop@treehouseracing.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats >lots and lots of stock > cars and sprint cars have hit stuff going faster that you probably > will and lived to tell the tale - so I'd not be concerned about > relative safety provided the install is correct. No offense Mr Walter, but I could not disagree with you more. This is simply not good advice regarding a safety item that is unacceptable in performance. I cannot type on this all day - Just watch some of the SCCA safety crash videos (call SCCA) and with a very small amount of logic, you will have a whole new perspective on seats. Jon _________________________ Treehouse Enterprises, Inc. 2832 Logan St Suite F Nashville, TN 37211 615-333-9118 www.TreehouseRacing.com _________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:26:24 -0500 > From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > The Kirkey aluminum pro race seats are very good quality and very > light... but the "Big Boy" is just for very fat people or students at > a driving school. It is the "I can't fit in a regular race seat" seat. > The 17lb pro race is comparable on price and available in +1,2 & 3 > sizes. (base is 14.5" IIRC) > > You do need a seat-back brace with aluminum but lots and lots of stock > cars and sprint cars have hit stuff going faster that you probably > will and lived to tell the tale - so I'd not be concerned about > relative safety provided the install is correct. > > On Nov 15, 2007 3:44 PM, Carlos Lopez <clopez98m3@gmail.com> wrote: >> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:35:09 -0500 >> From: "Carlos Lopez" <clopez98m3@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats >> >> On 11/15/07, David Thomas <dave@sasdatalink.com> wrote: >> > They look about as comfortable as a park bench, but I suppose its all >> > about >> > getting some padding that fits you well. >> >> Aluminum seats have to be attached to the cage as well, at least the >> seat back does. >> >> You couldn't pay me to track a car and sit in one of those things. I >> think some of the Kirkey ones look to be a night and day improvement >> over these. I still prefer a nice FIA certified seat for a track car >> though, if you shop around for a used one you can certainly find ones >> in excellent condition for about that price. Club raced cars require >> the seats have current dating (within 2 years SFI and 5 years for FIA) >> w/o seat back bracing so sometimes these are around from cars that >> have cages that don't permit the use of a brace. >> >> Carlos >> 98 M3 with two Momos that I bought in 2000 I think. :-/ >> >> >> >> ************************************************* >> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: >> >> Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >> Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >> Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >> Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >> Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >> Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com >> >> DIGEST INFORMATION: >> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >> ************************************************* >> >> >> > > > > -- > Walter Jordan > walter@offcambermotorsport.com > http://offcambermotorsport.com > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Carey Probst
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:50:06 -0500 From: Carey Probst <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats Thanks Mark, and all. I regularly talk to Joe about things like this and what I have to do next to add a Hans device correctly. I rarely make any safety changes without consulting him. He has several seats that fit me but are expensive because of my build, heavy, tall upper body, short legs, 3XL Tall with a 29" inseam. Biggest problem with seats is finding one with the shoulder belt openings high enough to prevent compression since my shoulders are well above most seatbelt openings. Fortunately, visiting HMS is not that hard since I make frequent trips to the area. Carey Mark Dadgar wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:20:42 -0800 > From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > On Nov 15, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Walter J wrote: > >> You do need a seat-back brace with aluminum but lots and lots of stock >> cars and sprint cars have hit stuff going faster that you probably >> will and lived to tell the tale - so I'd not be concerned about >> relative safety provided the install is correct. > > > No - you need much more support than a seatback brace can provide with > this kind of aluminum seat. The side bolsters on those seats collapse > instantly in an impact, particularly a side impact. I've seen the > video - it is ugly. They are very unsafe. The fact that stock/sprint > car people have been using them for years speaks more to the fact that > those racing organizations are behind the curve on safety than > anything else. Take a look at what NASCAR is doing with seats these > days - they have really stepped up their game since the Dale Earnhardt > crash. > > My advice - call Joe Marko at HMS Motorsport and discuss the topic > with him. There's no one available to us enthusiasts that knows more > about this topic than Joe. > > - Mark > ----- > mark@pdc-racing.net > > Check out my JustRacing homepage at: > http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > -- Carey Probst Member, M.I.T. Educational Council Perm: hcprobst@alum.mit.edu A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:32:15 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats On Nov 15, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Carey Probst wrote: > I regularly talk to Joe about things like this and what I have to do > next to add a Hans device correctly. I rarely make any safety > changes without consulting him. Joe is great people - we are very lucky to have him. I am in the process (finally) of rebuilding the JP E36 325is I crashed at Buttonwillow earlier this year (it needs a new chassis). Chances are very high that I will spend the $$ and put a RaceTech seat in the car this time, due to their superior shoulder support. That's really, really important in a side impact. When I saw Joe a couple of weeks ago, he mentioned that the FIA is revising their seat specs for 2009 - based on what he's told me in the past, I think we can expect much better side bolstering as a result. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing homepage at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Walter J
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:20:29 -0500 From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats Ummm... so have seat manufacturers. Hey lookie there! Guess what the pros are putting cars these days! http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/nascar_safety_seat_cockpit_technology/index.html Joe Marko might be the local big fish/small pond du jour but I'm going to go with the guys taking the 20G hits and walking away... the ones BUYING seats, not selling them. On Nov 15, 2007 5:54 PM, Carey Probst <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:50:06 -0500 > From: Carey Probst <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > Thanks Mark, and all. > > I regularly talk to Joe about things like this and what I have to do > next to add a Hans device correctly. I rarely make any safety changes > without consulting him. He has several seats that fit me but are > expensive because of my build, heavy, tall upper body, short legs, 3XL > Tall with a 29" inseam. > > Biggest problem with seats is finding one with the shoulder belt > openings high enough to prevent compression since my shoulders are well > above most seatbelt openings. > > Fortunately, visiting HMS is not that hard since I make frequent trips > to the area. > > Carey > > Mark Dadgar wrote: > > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:20:42 -0800 > > From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > > > On Nov 15, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Walter J wrote: > > > >> You do need a seat-back brace with aluminum but lots and lots of stock > >> cars and sprint cars have hit stuff going faster that you probably > >> will and lived to tell the tale - so I'd not be concerned about > >> relative safety provided the install is correct. > > > > > > No - you need much more support than a seatback brace can provide with > > this kind of aluminum seat. The side bolsters on those seats collapse > > instantly in an impact, particularly a side impact. I've seen the > > video - it is ugly. They are very unsafe. The fact that stock/sprint > > car people have been using them for years speaks more to the fact that > > those racing organizations are behind the curve on safety than > > anything else. Take a look at what NASCAR is doing with seats these > > days - they have really stepped up their game since the Dale Earnhardt > > crash. > > > > My advice - call Joe Marko at HMS Motorsport and discuss the topic > > with him. There's no one available to us enthusiasts that knows more > > about this topic than Joe. > > > > - Mark > > ----- > > mark@pdc-racing.net > > > > Check out my JustRacing homepage at: > > http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > > -- > > > > Carey Probst > > Member, M.I.T. Educational Council > > Perm: hcprobst@alum.mit.edu > > > > A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, > > the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > -- Walter Jordan walter@offcambermotorsport.com http://offcambermotorsport.com
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Walter J
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:25:57 -0500 From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats BTW, wasn't knocking the composites... have a Sparco in my car but to say that the top aluminum seats made today are a death-trap is silly. That 325i will never generate the kind of Gs to push either seat to its limit and a guy looking to spend $200 on the Big Boy is better served in the Pro Race seat for the same price point. If you asked "How can I best spend $900 to make sure I'm safe" I'd say top end composite all the way. On Nov 15, 2007 8:20 PM, Walter J <walter.gator@gmail.com> wrote: > Ummm... so have seat manufacturers. Hey lookie there! Guess what the > pros are putting cars these days! > http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/nascar_safety_seat_cockpit_technology/index.html > > Joe Marko might be the local big fish/small pond du jour but I'm going > to go with the guys taking the 20G hits and walking away... the ones > BUYING seats, not selling them. > > > On Nov 15, 2007 5:54 PM, Carey Probst <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:50:06 -0500 > > From: Carey Probst <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > > > Thanks Mark, and all. > > > > I regularly talk to Joe about things like this and what I have to do > > next to add a Hans device correctly. I rarely make any safety changes > > without consulting him. He has several seats that fit me but are > > expensive because of my build, heavy, tall upper body, short legs, 3XL > > Tall with a 29" inseam. > > > > Biggest problem with seats is finding one with the shoulder belt > > openings high enough to prevent compression since my shoulders are well > > above most seatbelt openings. > > > > Fortunately, visiting HMS is not that hard since I make frequent trips > > to the area. > > > > Carey > > > > Mark Dadgar wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:20:42 -0800 > > > From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> > > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Walter J wrote: > > > > > >> You do need a seat-back brace with aluminum but lots and lots of stock > > >> cars and sprint cars have hit stuff going faster that you probably > > >> will and lived to tell the tale - so I'd not be concerned about > > >> relative safety provided the install is correct. > > > > > > > > > No - you need much more support than a seatback brace can provide with > > > this kind of aluminum seat. The side bolsters on those seats collapse > > > instantly in an impact, particularly a side impact. I've seen the > > > video - it is ugly. They are very unsafe. The fact that stock/sprint > > > car people have been using them for years speaks more to the fact that > > > those racing organizations are behind the curve on safety than > > > anything else. Take a look at what NASCAR is doing with seats these > > > days - they have really stepped up their game since the Dale Earnhardt > > > crash. > > > > > > My advice - call Joe Marko at HMS Motorsport and discuss the topic > > > with him. There's no one available to us enthusiasts that knows more > > > about this topic than Joe. > > > > > > - Mark > > > ----- > > > mark@pdc-racing.net > > > > > > Check out my JustRacing homepage at: > > > http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Carey Probst > > > > Member, M.I.T. Educational Council > > > > Perm: hcprobst@alum.mit.edu > > > > > > > > A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, > > > > the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Walter Jordan > walter@offcambermotorsport.com > http://offcambermotorsport.com > -- Walter Jordan walter@offcambermotorsport.com http://offcambermotorsport.com
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:43:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats On Thu, November 15, 2007 5:24 pm, Walter J wrote: > Joe Marko might be the local big fish/small pond du jour You might want to do some research before slamming someone. Joe works directly with NASCAR (and others) on their safety requirements. He does more than sell them, he's involved in their testing, certification, and use. A lot of experienced people are trying to help you. You'd be best serviced by listening. Jim Bassett
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:27:39 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats On Nov 15, 2007, at 5:24 PM, Walter J wrote: > Ummm... so have seat manufacturers. Hey lookie there! Guess what the > pros are putting cars these days! > http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/nascar_safety_seat_cockpit_technology/index.html The issue is not that aluminum seats are bad - the issue is that the Big Boy seat we were talking about IS BAD. Very bad. There are a couple of very high-end aluminum seats with reinforced wings that are safe. They are also expensive and rare. The Big Boy is neither. Watch this video: <http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Why_You_Want_A_Right_Side_Net.wmv> That is a crappy-ass unreinforced aluminum seat he's sitting in, just like the Big Boy quoted earlier. Watch what happens to the head and shoulder "support" in the impact. It's like it's not even there during the hit and it remains bent out of the way afterwards. > Joe Marko might be the local big fish/small pond du jour You need to do some research. Then get back to us. > but I'm going to go with the guys taking the 20G hits and walking > away... > the ones BUYING seats, not selling them. When I wrecked my car in June, the car exited the corner at 71 mph per my AIM MXL data system. At that point it spun to the right, slide across the track, and impacted the tire wall almost perfectly head- on. I'd guess that we were traveling 40mph at impact. We hit two rows of stacked tires in front of the concrete wall. Even at the "lower" speed and with the cushioning effect of the tires, the car's frame bent enough to make repair unfeasible (the passenger floor is wrinkled and the right frame rail is almost touching the ground). The driver behind me reported that the rear of my car came up 3' off the ground at the impact before it rebounded off the tires (yes, I'm VERY bummed that neither of us were running video!). My passenger and I were both wearing full gear and HANS devices. We were quite literally untouched. Barely even sore. The car is basically a write-off. But all the expensive safety gear (quality seats & harnesses, HANS device, fire suit, high-end cage, etc) did what it was supposed to. Do you want to lecture me again about the "big hits" and your deep, deep knowledge of safety? Go do some research. You owe it to your family. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing homepage at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:29:17 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats On Nov 15, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Walter J wrote: > BTW, wasn't knocking the composites... have a Sparco in my car but to > say that the top aluminum seats made today are a death-trap is silly. > That 325i will never generate the kind of Gs to push either seat to > its limit That is absolute, total crap. There are places at my local tracks where I could EASILY hit something at 115 mph, even in my lowly 325is. Turns 10 & 11 at Infineon come to mind (brake/brain fade, anyone?). - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing homepage at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Walter J
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:13:21 -0500 From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats Look... I suppose I started the pissing match here. I didn't intend to. Let me try again. If you have $1k to burn on a seat go ahead... its a better seat. BUT... there are thousands of World of Outlaws, sprint cars, stock cars and various other contraptions going a lot faster, hitting a lot harder that a 325 in a head on can muster _and_ using aluminum seats... which is why I said that he should use the Kirkey PRO RACE SEAT not the BIG BOY in that picture if he was thinking $200 was a limit. "Do you want to lecture me again about the "big hits" and your deep, deep knowledge of safety?" Please there drama queen - nobody was lecturing you.
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Race seats - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:16:15 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Race seats On Nov 15, 2007, at 10:13 PM, Walter J wrote: > Look... I suppose I started the pissing match here. I didn't intend > to. Let me try again. If you have $1k to burn on a seat go ahead... > its a better seat. BUT... there are thousands of World of Outlaws, > sprint cars, stock cars and various other contraptions going a lot > faster, hitting a lot harder that a 325 in a head on can muster _and_ > using aluminum seats... which is why I said that he should use the > Kirkey PRO RACE SEAT not the BIG BOY in that picture if he was > thinking $200 was a limit. They use those seats because they DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. That's why NASCAR no longer uses them. Get it? They LEARNED. > "Do you want to lecture me again about the "big hits" and your deep, > deep knowledge of safety?" > > Please there drama queen - nobody was lecturing you. I'm done here. You either get it, or you don't. I'll put you down as "don't." - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing homepage at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar