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#1. RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC]tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up - from Marco Romani
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:13:29 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Exactly! -----Original Message----- From: Mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:Mdriver13@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 6:55 AM To: marco@corsa-na.com; e36m3@bmw-m.net Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up In a message dated 1/17/2008 8:50:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, marco@corsa-na.com writes: There is no way BMW officially stated the staggered wheels change was for "safety". If they did I'd have expected a class action law suit filed from an American lawyer against BMW NA in about 1 nanosecond for building an un-safe car. BMW NA's lawyers would have had a stroke if BMW stated anything about safety. Maybe, but I knew a "test driver" for BMW back in the 1995-1997 period who told me the staggered wheels were the result of too many stupid drivers wrapping their 1995 M3's around poles! I guess the auto industry marketeers call that a performance enhancement not a safety issue ;-)) cheers, Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> in the new year. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6 - Release Date: 1/17/2008 12:00 AM
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#2. RE: Spray Lubricant Chakra...was "steering wheel squeak" - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:02:33 -0800 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: Spray Lubricant Chakra...was "steering wheel squeak" AHHHH...Nothing like a good spray lubricant to get all my senses excited!!!! -------------------- 1 -------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:40:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: steering wheel squeak <snip> Also Wurth HHS2000 is a good one; I use that as my spray lubricant around the car. Hope that helps, Jim Bassett
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#3. RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:24:57 -0800 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up I think it was once stated "Understeer scares the driver, Oversteer scares the passenger" -------------------- 10 -------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:23:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Conner <jeff.conner@yahoo.com> I'm sure it makes sense, from the standpoint of the average American driver. Obviously you, Bob, don't fit into that mold, nor does Marco, but I witness enough idiocy on a daily basis to warrant having cars made to purposefully understeer. Indeed, staggering the wheel setup likely WAS done as a safety enhancement. That's just something they'd never admit to publicly, for reasons Marco alluded to. -jeff- S52 Sedan; S50 Trackdog; both with dangerous, non-staggered wheels ;-)
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#4. Re: [E36M3] RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up - from Gus Iverson
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:35:19 -0800 From: "Gus Iverson" <gus.iverson@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up That was either in Speed Secrets or one of Carrol Smith's books. Can't remember which. On Jan 18, 2008 10:30 AM, Burgess, Kim L <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:24:57 -0800 > From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> > Subject: RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up > > I think it was once stated > "Understeer scares the driver, Oversteer scares the passenger" > > -------------------- 10 -------------------- > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:23:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Jeff Conner <jeff.conner@yahoo.com> > I'm sure it makes sense, from the standpoint of the average American > driver. Obviously you, Bob, don't fit into that mold, nor does Marco, > but I witness enough idiocy on a daily basis to warrant having cars made > to purposefully understeer. > > Indeed, staggering the wheel setup likely WAS done as a safety > enhancement. That's just something they'd never admit to publicly, for > reasons Marco alluded to. -jeff- S52 Sedan; S50 Trackdog; both with > dangerous, non-staggered wheels ;-) > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#5. Re: [E36M3] RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:31:00 EST From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up In a message dated 1/18/2008 1:31:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, kim.l.burgess@boeing.com writes: I think it was once stated "Understeer scares the driver, Oversteer scares the passenger" Hi Kim, Yeah, it also scares the hell out of the course workers too! ;-)) Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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#6. RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel Set-up - from Jeff Bjerke
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:30:08 -0500 From: Jeff Bjerke <jbjerke@charter.net> Subject: RE: tire rub; OT staggered wheel Set-up I recall the change being for two reasons. To dial in more understeer and reduce the problem of the 95 rims bending like "butta". The change not only narrowed the front and widened the rear, but added some sidewall height as well. I've had both versions and think they all understeer heavily. So much so with the staggered set-up that it's almost impossible to get the car turned on the track without trail braking. I currently run the same size all around with suspension set up to reduce understeer and it still plows like a pig. I've never had as much as a hint of oversteer. European cars may be set-up differently, but I've never heard anyone in the USA even mention oversteer issues. Jeff Bjerke 98 Red/Blk Coupe ---------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:23:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Conner <jeff.conner@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up I'm sure it makes sense, from the standpoint of the average American driver. Obviously you, Bob, don't fit into that mold, nor does Marco, but I witness enough idiocy on a daily basis to warrant having cars made to purposefully understeer. Indeed, staggering the wheel setup likely WAS done as a safety enhancement. That's just something they'd never admit to publicly, for reasons Marco alluded to. -jeff S52 Sedan S50 Trackdog both with dangerous, non-staggered wheels ;-)
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#7. JT Designs strut bars going out of production - from Kurt Hoofnagle
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:03:40 -0800 (PST) From: Kurt Hoofnagle <kurthoofnagle@yahoo.com> Subject: JT Designs strut bars going out of production I just happended to visit the JT Design website the other day and noticed that the strut bars are down to stock on hand, with no intention to make more. Thus, I (finally) ordered one. Jim sent me a note indicating that mine is one of the last that will ever be sold as they are going out of production. As I just opened the box I can tell you that this piece is a work of art. Get 'em while you can. Kurt Hoofnagle 95 M3 headed to Laguna on Monday--woohoo!
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#8. RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC]tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up - from Marco Romani
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Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:52:15 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up If I'm not mistaken we're talking eurospec M3? ~40hp difference between the 94 and the 95, no? I'm not sure how you attribute the 3 second lap time drop to suspension given what Mr Soper says. I know that my lap times dropped 3 seconds after adding 40hp with no changes to suspension ;-) Seriously I give little weight to these types of comparisons with out knowing if all the cars were on the same rubber, were dialed in by the same person or if the driver just jumped in the car as presented. Hell, bad tire pressures can cause severe handling problems. For that matter old tires can make a big difference. I once was a good 2-3 seconds faster on one set of brand new tires versus another set of same brand new tires. Only difference was the production date on the tires was 18 months different. Now if this was the E30M3 list we'd be hearing a lot more on how real M3s only have 4 cylinders... best Marco -----Original Message----- From: Azik [Hotmail] [mailto:azik@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 12:20 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:12:04 +0100 From: "Azik [Hotmail]" <azik@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up I never said that that was an official statement. I will citate the tester's (racing driver) words on page 4: 1992-1995 M3 Coupe, Lap time 1 m31.95sec "Quicker than the M3 it replaces. Even so, it feels me feeling cluttered - unless you get it absolutely perfectly balanced entering a corner you're going to need armfuls of opposite lock everywhere. 1995-1999 M3 Coupe Lap time 1m 28.62 sec More power, quicker steering, stronger brakes and new spring and dampers compared to the forst M3 coupe "Pulls like crazy from corners and very comfortable at high speeds. enough torque to avoid messing about with constant gearchanges, so I can concentrate on getting the steering inputs right." Now may be that 92-95 coupe had a worn suspension - that is another question. but mor thyan 3 sec on short lap is a lot of time and mostly won because of better suspension, not really difference in power. Azar, '97 528iA, '98 M3 3.2 Coupe Euro 321 HP (oOO\(||||)(||||)/OOo) /|OO|(||||)(||||)|OO|\ Celle, Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:50 AM Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:41:22 -0800 From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up ;-) There is no way BMW officially stated the staggered wheels change was for "safety". If they did I'd have expected a class action law suit filed from an American lawyer against BMW NA in about 1 nanosecond for building an un-safe car. BMW NA's lawyers would have had a stroke if BMW stated anything about safety. I don't have the time to read the article but I do have the time to offer my opinions. ;-) Marco -----Original Message----- From: Azik [hotmail.com] [mailto:Azik@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:20 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:13:36 +0100 From: "Azik [hotmail.com]" <Azik@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up That might be - I just got the car... but - BMW changed the suspension setup and went to staggered wheels setup - to make the car safer. It's just lack of skills from my and probably many other's side. Here is the test i was talking about. Car magazine 2005, If I am not mistakin' http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-1.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-2.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-3.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-4.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-5.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-6.jpg http://www.e34.de/e34/m-history/m-history-7.jpg Azar '97 528iA and '98 M3 Coupe (oOO \ (||||)(||||) / OOo) Celle, Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> To: "'Azik [Hotmail]'" <azik@hotmail.com>; "'E36M3'" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up The 94/95 M3 was very neutral with same size wheels and tires all around AS LONG AS YOUR rear toe bushings weren't worn. If they were torn or worn badly the car could snap over steer. Marco -----Original Message----- From: Azik [Hotmail] [mailto:azik@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 4:30 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:27:35 +0100 From: "Azik [Hotmail]" <azik@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: [UUC] <E36> tire rub; OT staggered wheel set-up Matt, As I totalled my 1994 M3 with 235 all around - I can say that this setup is too oversteery. That was also confirmed by one of the reacing drivers who tested and compared different M cars as well as two coupe's - 1994 with 235 all around and 1997 with staggered. Even with higher torque the latter model was much more neutral than 1994 M3 and didn't oversteer out of the corner as older model. I now have 1998 on standart staggered and can confirm that its neutral, mey be a bit understeery but just alittle bit. Azar, '97 528iA, '98 M3 3.2 Coupe Euro 321 HP (oOO\(||||)(||||)/OOo) /|OO|(||||)(||||)|OO|\ Celle, Germany
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#9. Re: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:58:45 EST From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production In a message dated 1/19/2008 1:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, kurthoofnagle@yahoo.com writes: As I just opened the box I can tell you that this piece is a work of art. Get 'em while you can. Absolutely! I'd say one of the best bars on the market! Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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#10. RE: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production - from Paul Andrews
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:00:54 -0500 From: "Paul Andrews" <emosound@verizon.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production Less of a work of art, perhaps, but solid (no joints), lightweight (steel or AL), fits perfectly, still in production, and best of all, cheap: http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_4_24&products_id=65 Pick your poison, steel or AL, one-piece or adjustable: http://www.vorshlag.com/index.php?cPath=1_4_24 Paul Andrews 98 M3/4 # 42 STU -----Original Message----- From: Mdriver13@aol.com [mailto:Mdriver13@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 9:10 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:58:45 EST From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] JT Designs strut bars going out of production In a message dated 1/19/2008 1:10:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, kurthoofnagle@yahoo.com writes: As I just opened the box I can tell you that this piece is a work of art. Get 'em while you can. Absolutely! I'd say one of the best bars on the market! Bob Gill 97 ///M3