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#1. Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question - from Walter J
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:41:42 -0500 From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question I'd agree with you if I was removing the primary chain but if you don't do that, the cam lock tool is holding the cams and the crank in the exact correct position (unless you don't trust timing chains either). Think about it... the cam lock tool fitting on the exhaust cam IS the top dead center - the pencil just gets you close from where you stand holding the ratchet on the crank so you don't have to keep letting go to see if the squares on the rear of the cams are looking close yet. The exhaust cam and primary chain never change angle to each other unless you have a dual vanos so if that was incorrectly timed the exhaust valves would smack the piston. Only the intake cam moves a few degrees on engage/disengage and as long as the secondary chain sprocket is loose - the intake cam will go where you put it with the cam lock tool. So, when you put the tool on the exhaust cam and it fits you are at TDC. The reason I said with the lobes pointing at each other is to be at TDC with #1 on the power stroke. Making sure you catch that 1st tooth with the VANOS unit while the secondary chain is fully rotated to full clock-wise is the only real critical part (and the primary chain is properly tensioned). You can call me crazy but there are no bumps in the power curve and no dings in the pistons... On Feb 1, 2008 5:29 PM, Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:23:17 -0800 (PST) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question > > All you guys who are suggesting pencils or whatever way to time the VANOS are > out of your minds. I don't even trust the factory centering pin and feel that > it's just a short cut to take by BMW technicians. Get a dial indicator and go > through the spark plug hole in cylinder #1...plain and simple. Did someone > really suggest a pencil and rotating the crank until you can lock the cam > locks? So if the VANOS was mistimed in the first place...no biggie? C'mon! > When installing the Eurosport cam kit on Wayne's car, Josh was telling the tech > to place a 2.5mm allen key under the cam lock to advance/retard one of the > cams. We're taling about that precise! > > Learn what you're doing first before proceeding and if you guys have no idea > what you're talking about, you should really not spread misinformation. > > Chester > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > -- Walter Jordan walter@offcambermotorsport.com http://offcambermotorsport.com
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question This is completely wrong. *All* of the sprockets are slotted: http://tinyurl.com/yr2m5z http://tinyurl.com/24phwr It's only when you tighten the torx bolts on the exhaust cam and the nuts on the intake cam that you lock down the timing. Chester --- Walter J <walter.gator@gmail.com> wrote: > either). Think about it... the cam lock tool fitting on the exhaust > cam IS the top dead center - the pencil just gets you close from where > you stand holding the ratchet on the crank so you don't have to keep > letting go to see if the squares on the rear of the cams are looking > close yet. The exhaust cam and primary chain never change angle to > each other unless you have a dual vanos so if that was incorrectly > timed the exhaust valves would smack the piston.
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question - from Walter J
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:53:10 -0500 From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question The slots shown in that second url of the primary timing chain gear are not the slots the cam bolts go thru. Here is a pic of the last one of these I yanked apart... http://offcambermotorsport.com/100_0552.JPG. This one was a complete "head off" job so I must confess that there is a cam lock, and a flywheel pin involved. Notice that the slots line up with back of the bolts that hold the secondary gear in place and the bolt that fixes the primary gear is inside it. Those 4 holes are not shown in the realoem drawing but they are fixed holes IIRC, the big flat washer has slots as does the secondary sprocket - but I am going to go out and yank my damn valve cover just to be sure. In the meantime... to the OP... go borrow a dial indicator - its the more righter way to do it ;) On Feb 1, 2008 8:29 PM, Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:23:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question > > This is completely wrong. *All* of the sprockets are slotted: > > http://tinyurl.com/yr2m5z > http://tinyurl.com/24phwr > > It's only when you tighten the torx bolts on the exhaust cam and the nuts on > the intake cam that you lock down the timing. > > Chester > > > --- Walter J <walter.gator@gmail.com> wrote: > > either). Think about it... the cam lock tool fitting on the exhaust > > cam IS the top dead center - the pencil just gets you close from where > > you stand holding the ratchet on the crank so you don't have to keep > > letting go to see if the squares on the rear of the cams are looking > > close yet. The exhaust cam and primary chain never change angle to > > each other unless you have a dual vanos so if that was incorrectly > > timed the exhaust valves would smack the piston. > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > -- Walter Jordan walter@offcambermotorsport.com http://offcambermotorsport.com
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#4. Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question - from Chris Gant
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:03:31 -0600 From: "Chris Gant" <cgant2112@gmail.com> Subject: Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question Honestly Chester, if you've properly set the #1 piston at TDC it doesn't matter if you've used a bent piece of wire or a "frickin' laser beam". It's not that difficult to visually see where the piston stops moving. We're talking fractions of a degree here, and even with a dial indicator, you can still rotate the crank a small amount in either direction without moving the dial at TDC. I can say that on every install I've done, checking the crank pin against the timing marks, against TDC of the #1 piston, to using a dial gauge that reads to the 1/2 thousandth, they've all been in sync with each other. I really don't feel it's necessary to say that people are 'out of their minds' for using a very common and acceptable method for checking TDC, or using the factory locking pin to locate the flywheel. These are not formula 1 engines. Yes, the dial indicator is the most precise method, but there is enough play in the factory design that even BMW uses approximations in the TIS to measure cam travel. You do know that the vanos advances the intake cam anywhere from 8.5 to 10mm or more, right? Not exactly precise. Also, using a 2.5mm allen key to retard the intake cam from factory specs is not all that precise. Why not use a dial indicator and get it at "exactly" 3 degrees? /sarcasm. That also just goes to show that tinkering with the cams (i.e., changing their location relative to TDC) can actually yield better results than stock! Not trying to start anything, but I think it's important not to spread paranoia either. This is really a very simple procedure. And to address one other bit of misinformation... just because the vanos doesn't rattle doesn't mean that it's 'fine'. There are moving parts that wear out and rubber o-rings that are hard as a rock by now, which effectively turns the vanos into a 'hit and miss' device. I have a box full of hardened, brittle seals from these vanos units that literally break apart when they are bent... not really that effective (or precise) for creating a good, high pressure oil seal in the vanos, is it? A fresh vanos, with fresh O-rings and seals will definitely make a noticeable difference in the engine. The vanos rattle has ZERO to do with the condition of the vanos unit, it's just a phenomena that some cars have and others don't, but it's foolish to assume that a 10 year old vanos is fine just because it doesn't rattle.
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#5. TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit - from Dave Thomas
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:19:23 -0800 From: Dave Thomas <dave@sasdatalink.com> Subject: TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit I just installed my 'stage 2' TMS/Conforti kit in my '95...why did I not buy this sooner? Oh yea, its pretty expensive lol. Results are great. What a wicked bark out of that engine above 6K. Those new style Bosch injectors sure are funky lookin' though, was a little surprised to see how skinny they are. Any of you with a '95 that are on the fence about purchasing this kit (or similar) should jump on it. You will be happy. It really changes the personality of the car. Dave
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#6. installing push button start - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:19:48 EST From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: installing push button start Guys, I read an article the other day in one of those European magazines on a super, over the top, modified e36M3. One feature I did like was a conversion to push button start using the one from the Z8 coupe. Just wondering if anyone has some ballpark idea what this would cost? In the day of push button start on most sports cars this sounds interesting to me, or maybe I'm just delirious from the winter cold! cheers, Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2005 / 2006 Philly Region BSP Champion Sponsored by Wheel Collision Center & Rogue Engineering **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48)
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#7. Re: [E36M3] installing push button start - from Dave Thomas
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:51:24 -0800 From: Dave Thomas <dave@sasdatalink.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] installing push button start On Friday 01 February 2008 8:29:32 pm Mdriver13@aol.com wrote: > In the day of push button start on > most sports cars this sounds interesting to me, or maybe I'm just delirious > from the winter cold! Nah....its the cold ;-) Whats next? Flappy paddle shifting? lol Dave
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question - from Peter Loron
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:55:09 -0800 From: "Peter Loron" <peterloron@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question I've now done the head R&R twice. The second time we even forgot to TDC #1 the motor before putting the head back on (looooong story, looooooong night), so we wound up pulling the cams to be able to spin the engine to TDC. All of that was done with no cam lock, no flywheel lock. The motor just doesn't move around by itself. Once you get the head back on and are putting the VANOS back in, you fiddle with the crank a bit to adjust timing so you can get the sprocket started in the right spot. We followed a blend of directions from 101 Projects and the Bentley book. On my engine (stock), the TDC mark on the flywheel and block line up well. Between that and noting the cam lobe positions, getting to TDC #1 is simple. I suppose you could use a dial indicator, but we just used a good flashlight and eyeballed the piston in #1. There's only two spots in the rotation where the marks line up. One of them #1 is TDC, the other is not. Easy to tell. As Walter said, IIRC, the sprocket holes are fixed. No VANOS codes or power issues either time. -Pete On Feb 1, 2008 7:59 PM, Walter J <walter.gator@gmail.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:53:10 -0500 > From: "Walter J" <walter.gator@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question > > The slots shown in that second url of the primary timing chain gear > are not the slots the cam bolts go thru. Here is a pic of the last one > of these I yanked apart... > http://offcambermotorsport.com/100_0552.JPG. This one was a complete > "head off" job so I must confess that there is a cam lock, and a > flywheel pin involved. > > Notice that the slots line up with back of the bolts that hold the > secondary gear in place and the bolt that fixes the primary gear is > inside it. Those 4 holes are not shown in the realoem drawing but they > are fixed holes IIRC, the big flat washer has slots as does the > secondary sprocket - but I am going to go out and yank my damn valve > cover just to be sure. In the meantime... to the OP... go borrow a > dial indicator - its the more righter way to do it ;) > > > On Feb 1, 2008 8:29 PM, Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:23:00 -0800 (PST) > > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Vanos install question > > > > This is completely wrong. *All* of the sprockets are slotted: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/yr2m5z > > http://tinyurl.com/24phwr > > > > It's only when you tighten the torx bolts on the exhaust cam and the > nuts on > > the intake cam that you lock down the timing. > > > > Chester > > > > > > --- Walter J <walter.gator@gmail.com> wrote: > > > either). Think about it... the cam lock tool fitting on the exhaust > > > cam IS the top dead center - the pencil just gets you close from where > > > you stand holding the ratchet on the crank so you don't have to keep > > > letting go to see if the squares on the rear of the cams are looking > > > close yet. The exhaust cam and primary chain never change angle to > > > each other unless you have a dual vanos so if that was incorrectly > > > timed the exhaust valves would smack the piston. > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > -- > Walter Jordan > walter@offcambermotorsport.com > http://offcambermotorsport.com > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#9. RE: [E36M3] TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit - from Matt Bader
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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:10:06 -0500 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit The stage 2 kit includes the cams does it not? TMS claims a gain of up to 32 hp for the stage I, which seems rather optimistic. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Thomas [mailto:dave@sasdatalink.com] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:20 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:19:23 -0800 From: Dave Thomas <dave@sasdatalink.com> Subject: TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit I just installed my 'stage 2' TMS/Conforti kit in my '95...why did I not buy this sooner? Oh yea, its pretty expensive lol. Results are great. What a wicked bark out of that engine above 6K. Those new style Bosch injectors sure are funky lookin' though, was a little surprised to see how skinny they are. Any of you with a '95 that are on the fence about purchasing this kit (or similar) should jump on it. You will be happy. It really changes the personality of the car. Dave ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#10. Re: [E36M3] TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit - from Jeff Conner
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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:12:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Conner <jeff.conner@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] TMS/Conforti 'stage 2' kit I believe stage 2 has the 24# injectors, in addition the the Stage 1's Intake/HFM/Chip I should get the 95 dynoed, to see if the claims are even remotely true. I'm always skeptical about HP gain claims. I will say this, gutted and with the Stage 2 kit, my 95 is WAAAAAY quicker than my 98 (with Dinan S/W). -jeff ----- Original Message ---- From: Matt Bader <mbader@exammaster.com> The stage 2 kit includes the cams does it not? TMS claims a gain of up to 32 hp for the stage I, which seems rather optimistic. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Thomas [mailto:dave@sasdatalink.com] I just installed my 'stage 2' TMS/Conforti kit in my '95...why did I not buy this sooner? Oh yea, its pretty expensive lol. Results are great. What a wicked bark out of that engine above 6K. Those new style Bosch injectors sure are funky lookin' though, was a little surprised to see how skinny they are. Any of you with a '95 that are on the fence about purchasing this kit (or similar) should jump on it. You will be happy. It really changes the personality of the car. Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping