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#1. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:00:16 -0400 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question Well, this is an interesting correlation but this does not point to an absolute conclusion. Perhaps those installing steel arms are more concerned about proper installation. Or perhaps there are so few using steel arms as compared to aluminum that even 2 aluminum failures is twice the failure rate of steel. That's one thing I hate about statistics, without knowing the full picture they can logically come to any conclusion. The design of the aluminum arm is different than that of either the E30 or E36 steel arm. Without a proper test saying one is stiffer than another is not accurate. Oh, and it does matter where they are stiffer, stiffness is not a general number in this case. The E36 ball joints, being larger, are likely more robust but that does not mean the E30 ball joints are inadequate by any means....this seemed like the implication I guess. As Carlos stated, and I think I did in a different post, somebody did hardness tests on E30 ball joints sometime back. I don't think they did E36 though. Regarding the solid ball joints....should we switch to using Meyle parts then? They are heavy duty and solid! ; ) That one is just for you Rich. ; ) I also agree with you that the CR recommendation for switching is ill founded at best in the case of E36 cars. Cheers. Jack On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Rich Dorffer <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> wrote: > If failures were due to installation, this would occur whether it was > aluminum or steel, I haven't heard of nearly the failures with steel as > aluminum. The volume of aluminum in the aluminum control arms is about the > same as the volume of steel in the steel control arms, it doesn't take much > to figure out that the steel arm is far more robust than the aluminum (at > the expense of weight of course). The ball joints in the E36 M3 control > arms are solid and heat treated versus the E30/E36 control arms having > rubber lined ball joints that are not as large. I can't confirm whether > this holds completely true for the E30 M3 aluminum control arms, maybe I > need to cut one apart. > > Club Racing recommends the aluminum E30 M3 arms over the E36 M3 arms? I > guess this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Club Racing's > position. Where do they make that recommendation? > > Regards, > > Rich > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Jack - Elephant Motorsports < > jack@elephantmotorsports.com> wrote: > > > Actually from what I've been able to determine the reason for frequent > > replacement recommendation is based more on failures due to improper > > installation rather than part degredation. At least I'll say there is more > > evidence/proof that is the case. Seems a lot of people like to overtorque > > them. It's interesting that CR recommends replacing stock arms with the > > aluminum arms, both E30 and E36, but again, I've seen no real evidence it's > > necessary. > > > > As for the ball joint robustness and stiffness of the arm....I don't > > think I've ever seen anyone say this, just curious as to where this comes > > from. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Jack Money > > > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Rich Dorffer <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 01:41:04 -0400 > > > From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> > > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question > > > > > > They aren't stronger, the ball joints are not as robust, the aluminum > > > is > > > more prone to cracking and they are less stiff than steel E36 M3 > > > control > > > arms. They weren't designed for the E36 M3 and even when used on the > > > lighter and less powerful E30 M3, more frequent replacement is > > > recommended > > > on the E30 M3 particularly in track usage (more frequent than > > > typically > > > recommended of the E36 M3 with their stock steel arms). > > > > > > Stick with stock E36 M3 Lemforder steel control arms unless a > > > minuscule > > > amount of unsprung weight savings and more frequent, more expensive > > > aluminum > > > arm replacement appeals to you. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:14 PM, Jerry Brown <dotmumble@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:14:57 +0100, Rich Dorffer < > > > E36M3Digest@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > And the aluminum control arms are an improvent over new control > > > arms > > > > how? > > > > > > > > Stronger, less unsprung weight. Admittedly, not that important to > > > some > > > > owners. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > -jerry > > > > >
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Rich Dorffer
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:04:52 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Jack - Elephant Motorsports < jack@elephantmotorsports.com> wrote: > > Regarding the solid ball joints....should we switch to using Meyle parts > then? They are heavy duty and solid! ; ) That one is just for you Rich. ; > ) > Easy now, let's not go crazy, next thing you know, Meyle will sponsor BMW Club Racing and there will be another safety standard to use all Meyle suspension parts... ;-) Comparing a proper Lemforder E30 M3 aluminum control arm ball joint to a proper Lemforder E36 M3 steel control arm ball joint. :-) I think I am going to have to break out my sawzall soon and cut a couple of control arms up. Regards, Rich
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Rich Dorffer
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:06:23 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question > > From: "Jerry Brown" <dotmumble@gmail.com> > > Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but my previous comments were based > on information I've recieved. Can you provide facts to back up your > assertions? I'm quite happy to be educated, but would feel much better if > actual facts and figures were involved, rather than blanket statments. > You mean you want actual facts unlike the blanket statement you originally made? :-) Regards, Rich
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#4. RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Marco Romani
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 09:22:49 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <marco@corsa-na.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question I have some old Al laying around ready to go to the dump. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Dorffer [mailto:E36M3Digest@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:15 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:04:52 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Jack - Elephant Motorsports < jack@elephantmotorsports.com> wrote: > > Regarding the solid ball joints....should we switch to using Meyle parts > then? They are heavy duty and solid! ; ) That one is just for you Rich. ; > ) > Easy now, let's not go crazy, next thing you know, Meyle will sponsor BMW Club Racing and there will be another safety standard to use all Meyle suspension parts... ;-) Comparing a proper Lemforder E30 M3 aluminum control arm ball joint to a proper Lemforder E36 M3 steel control arm ball joint. :-) I think I am going to have to break out my sawzall soon and cut a couple of control arms up. Regards, Rich ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1324 - Release Date: 3/10/2008 7:27 PM
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Jerry Brown
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:27:20 +0100 From: "Jerry Brown" <dotmumble@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question Yes, both of us made blanket statements asserted as facts. ;^) Apparently, we both have taken the word of others we regard as authoritative. Hopefully, the discussion will lead to someone providing some additional info. As for me, I'm going to look at the bimmerworld arms, since they address the geometry issue of lowered cars. I've long wondered about that, since I use a bumpsteer correction spacer on my 635 track car. Cheers, -jerry On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:14:59 +0100, Rich Dorffer <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> wrote: > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:06:23 -0400 > From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question > >> >> From: "Jerry Brown" <dotmumble@gmail.com> >> >> Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but my previous comments were based >> on information I've recieved. Can you provide facts to back up your >> assertions? I'm quite happy to be educated, but would feel much better >> if >> actual facts and figures were involved, rather than blanket statments. >> > You mean you want actual facts unlike the blanket statement you > originally > made? > > :-) > > Regards, > > Rich
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#6. Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Jerry Brown
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:28:34 +0100 From: "Jerry Brown" <dotmumble@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:24:58 +0100, Marco Romani <marco@corsa-na.com> wrote: > I have some old Al laying around ready to go to the dump. Don't you mean "recycler"? This is CA, you know. ;^) Cheers, -jerry
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:38:31 -0400 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question Rich, Forgot to answer your other question. Here is where you can find the stuff about ball joints: http://bmwccaclubracing.com/Information/Tech_Bulletins.aspx Cheers. Jack
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Rich Dorffer
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:19:26 -0400 From: "Rich Dorffer" <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question So, nothing specific to E36 M3 control arms which are clearly different than regular E30/E36 control arms. Regards, Rich On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Jack - Elephant Motorsports < jack@elephantmotorsports.com> wrote: > Rich, > > Forgot to answer your other question. Here is where you can find the > stuff about ball joints: > > http://bmwccaclubracing.com/Information/Tech_Bulletins.aspx >
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:50:50 -0400 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension refresh question Like the original posting, it doesn't say non M3 or specifically M3, it just says E30/E36....one of the many problems with this bulletin. Jack On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Rich Dorffer <E36M3Digest@gmail.com> wrote: > So, nothing specific to E36 M3 control arms which are clearly different > than regular E30/E36 control arms. > > Regards, > > Rich > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Jack - Elephant Motorsports < > jack@elephantmotorsports.com> wrote: > > > Rich, > > > > Forgot to answer your other question. Here is where you can find the > > stuff about ball joints: > > > > http://bmwccaclubracing.com/Information/Tech_Bulletins.aspx > > >
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#10. Re: [E36M3] "Brake light circuit" warning? - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:52:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] "Brake light circuit" warning? On Tue, March 11, 2008 6:14 am, Mark D wrote: > I'll try that, and as an aside, anyone know if WD40 is a recommended > cleaning solution for potentiometers? I have an amp that's acting up > due to the gain adjustment. Use a proper electrical contact cleaner. And for lubrication, use a proper spray lubricant. And for general automotive use, use a proper brake/parts cleaner. WD-40 is none of those. Jim Bassett